Episode 18
Our Product is People
Host Stephanie Maas is joined by ThinkingAhead Partner and Recruiter Cathy Moll, who shares tips for building relationships and being a better listener and hiring & training recruiters, explains why the search field both IS and IS NOT a sales role, and talks about walking uphill through the snow, discovering Google for the first time, and a few hilarious faxing mishaps.
Transcript
Hi, welcome to The Talent Trade. This is
Stephanie Maas:Stephanie Maas, Partner with ThinkingAhead Executive Search.
Stephanie Maas:Today I am super excited to have one of our greatest with us
Stephanie Maas:today. Cathy Moll leads our life sciences practice and has for
Stephanie Maas:many years. Cathy, we are super excited to have you here. Before
Stephanie Maas:we dive in, tell us a little bit more about your practice your
Stephanie Maas:background, etc.
Cathy Moll:Hey, Stephanie. Hi, thanks. So glad to be talking
Cathy Moll:with you today. And let me just take a minute introduce myself.
Cathy Moll:I am with the life sciences practice, which I started with
Cathy Moll:thinking ahead 26 years ago, almost 27 years, and we cover
Cathy Moll:everything in the pharmaceutical medical device and biotech
Cathy Moll:industries in terms of research and development and everything
Cathy Moll:on their commercial side.
Stephanie Maas:Wow. Sounds like you work with a bunch of
Stephanie Maas:underachievers. So one of the reasons why I am excited to have
Stephanie Maas:Cathy is, again, when you've been in this business, whether
Stephanie Maas:it's you know, 15 minutes, 15 years, or 25 plus years, the way
Stephanie Maas:thinking ahead does our search business is it is just as
Stephanie Maas:important to us to maintain relationships, as it is to go
Stephanie Maas:out and find and build new relationships. And Cathy has
Stephanie Maas:proven through the years that she is a master of all
Stephanie Maas:relationships. So Cathy, I would love for you just to share with
Stephanie Maas:us just how you do some of what you do in terms of building,
Stephanie Maas:maintaining, developing, etc, anything relationship oriented,
Stephanie Maas:whether it's clients, candidates, everything in
Stephanie Maas:between? How do you do what you do?
Cathy Moll:So we'll start with how I joined thinking ahead and
Cathy Moll:why I joined thinking ahead, I was actually a client for
Cathy Moll:thinking ahead. And I worked with one or two people and
Cathy Moll:developed a very strong relationship with them. Part of
Cathy Moll:the reason that I joined was because I felt like they knew
Cathy Moll:who I was, they understood what I was looking for. And actually
Cathy Moll:we became friends, I had been in the search field previously
Cathy Moll:didn't love it, frankly, because I felt like the way that I was
Cathy Moll:treated was very transactional. And in dealing with the folks
Cathy Moll:from thinking ahead, I didn't get that feeling at all. So what
Cathy Moll:ended up happening is my husband was offered a job, which was
Cathy Moll:going to require relocation and at that time, there was no such
Cathy Moll:thing as work from home, I actually approached this
Cathy Moll:individual and asked him if he could help me find something.
Cathy Moll:And he said, Have I got a deal for you, what I would like for
Cathy Moll:you to do is think about starting a practice with our
Cathy Moll:organization. And because of the way he treated me and the
Cathy Moll:relationship that we develop, I got into conversations with him.
Cathy Moll:And so fast forward 26 years I'm here. And here's what I think it
Cathy Moll:comes down to is a sincere interest in the person that
Cathy Moll:you're talking to a client candidate, or just someone
Cathy Moll:you're helping because they've called and said, Do you have a
Cathy Moll:few minutes to take a look at my resume. And rather than thinking
Cathy Moll:about everybody as an end to a means I really am genuinely
Cathy Moll:interested in what they have to say, I don't think there's a
Cathy Moll:magic to it. I think I just look at a person as someone who is
Cathy Moll:interesting. I mean, I've learned so much from people over
Cathy Moll:the years because of what they have shared with me about their
Cathy Moll:background and their life experiences. And I'm truly
Cathy Moll:interested in all of those things. I was thinking about
Cathy Moll:this this morning, long before we had different tools to remind
Cathy Moll:us of when somebody's birthday was coming up or an anniversary,
Cathy Moll:I listened to what people said, I talked to them about their
Cathy Moll:kids, I talked about them about travels that they were going to
Cathy Moll:do. And when birthdays came up or anniversaries came up, I
Cathy Moll:always send a card because it's important to be remembered
Cathy Moll:that's a special anymore because everybody has reminders that
Cathy Moll:come up. But I can probably tell you some of my top five clients
Cathy Moll:and candidates who I've worked with, I can tell you their
Cathy Moll:birthdays before you know looking it up. It's just really
Cathy Moll:about having a genuine interest and staying in touch with people
Cathy Moll:reaching out to them if something has happened in their
Cathy Moll:lives and acknowledging that I'm a little bit nosy about people
Cathy Moll:as well. And so I think it's just managing those
Cathy Moll:relationships how I would like to be dealt with treat others
Cathy Moll:like you want to be treated.
Stephanie Maas:Super helpful and I appreciate that you say
Stephanie Maas:that hey, there's no real magic here. But for a lot of us this
Stephanie Maas:does not come natural. You know how do you handle it when you
Stephanie Maas:get on the phone with somebody? I'm not gonna say this not
Stephanie Maas:interesting because you know beauty is in the eye of the
Stephanie Maas:beholder but How do you manage when people are difficult? Or
Stephanie Maas:you're having to pull teeth to get them to open up and share?
Stephanie Maas:What could or possibly be interesting?
Cathy Moll:Another great question, I think there are
Cathy Moll:moments of silence in my communication with people, I
Cathy Moll:don't feel like I have to be the person who is always talking.
Cathy Moll:It's more about listening. Not that everybody is easy, for
Cathy Moll:sure. But it's really just kind of digging and finding out what
Cathy Moll:it is that motivates that person. And then asking them
Cathy Moll:questions about that mean, we deal with a lot of people in our
Cathy Moll:industry who are very numbers oriented. And so they're not as
Cathy Moll:apt to share a lot personally, but they're super excited about
Cathy Moll:what they do. And for me, if I let someone know that one of the
Cathy Moll:reasons I'm calling them is to learn to learn a little bit more
Cathy Moll:about what it is that they do, and how it can affect, I mean,
Cathy Moll:I'm dealing in the pharmaceutical industry. So how
Cathy Moll:it can affect people, people love to talk about that they may
Cathy Moll:not love to talk about themselves, but they do like to
Cathy Moll:talk about what it is that they do, and how it can have an
Cathy Moll:impact on I guess, the greater good, especially in
Cathy Moll:pharmaceutical, anybody who knew me in high school, if they knew
Cathy Moll:that I was doing anything at all that had to do with science,
Cathy Moll:they would be shocked. I am not a science person and not a math
Cathy Moll:person. So truly, I learned from every single person that I
Cathy Moll:talked to, and I let them know that they are helping me to get
Cathy Moll:better at what I do, as well.
Stephanie Maas:Very cool. I heard two things there, I just
Stephanie Maas:want to make sure we reiterate that I think are super valuable
Stephanie Maas:is you commented several times on being a high quality
Stephanie Maas:listener, and then also to the opportunity to learn. And I do
Stephanie Maas:think to your point in a very sincere and authentic way, when
Stephanie Maas:we ask people to help us learn it that does generate an
Stephanie Maas:openness in them. It's so funny, I think when people are in
Stephanie Maas:sales, you know, I You often hear you used to hear like, Oh,
Stephanie Maas:you've got the gift of the gab, you'd be great for sales. But
Stephanie Maas:what we hear thinking ahead really talk about is, you know,
Stephanie Maas:that's actually not what makes us good, we really talk a lot
Stephanie Maas:about is listening idea. So for somebody that maybe isn't as
Stephanie Maas:good of a listener or thinks that they could improve their
Stephanie Maas:listening skills, which let's face it, that's probably most
Stephanie Maas:people. What are some of your tricks of the trade tips, if you
Stephanie Maas:will, that help you be a better listener?
Cathy Moll:Again, I don't know that it's a trick of the trade.
Cathy Moll:I think when I first got started, I had a note in front
Cathy Moll:of myself that said, listen, and let the person answer the
Cathy Moll:question. And so in building habits over the years, he just
Cathy Moll:sort of do that. I tend to be that person who talks over
Cathy Moll:people, because I'm excited about what they're saying. So I
Cathy Moll:will tell someone in the beginning, if I'm talking over
Cathy Moll:you, you need to tell me. And it's only because I'm super
Cathy Moll:excited about what it is that you have to say, or I'm curious,
Cathy Moll:I think when I ask someone a question, or I engage in a
Cathy Moll:conversation with them, the way to demonstrate that I do really
Cathy Moll:care about what they're saying is to just kind of dip it and
Cathy Moll:let them answer the question. And when they answer the
Cathy Moll:question, I can then build upon that and ask more questions. So
Cathy Moll:it's a real curiosity about what this person has to say, and
Cathy Moll:whether I'm going to end up working with them directly or
Cathy Moll:not, the more I know about them, the better, I am able to help
Cathy Moll:them out. And I just keep that in mind.
Stephanie Maas:Through your years, not only have you been
Stephanie Maas:consistently one of our absolute best recruiters, you've also
Stephanie Maas:hired and trained some of our top producers as well. When
Stephanie Maas:you're working with a newer person, what challenges do you
Stephanie Maas:see them face in building and maintaining relationships that
Stephanie Maas:you find that again, we're all human, we all have strengths or
Stephanie Maas:weaknesses. But for the newer folks, what do you find having
Stephanie Maas:to train or teach them as it relates to building and
Stephanie Maas:maintaining relationships?
Cathy Moll:I think that a lot of people that we hire come from
Cathy Moll:a sales background. And I think the hardest thing or one of the
Cathy Moll:biggest obstacles that they have to overcome is that this is not
Cathy Moll:a transactional sale. And they can get frustrated because what
Cathy Moll:they're accustomed to is they call on somebody and they're
Cathy Moll:looking for a sale. And what we have to help them to understand
Cathy Moll:is that the sale could be that you just want to set up a time
Cathy Moll:to talk with them, or that you want to spend time learning a
Cathy Moll:little bit more about them. And so I think the the biggest
Cathy Moll:obstacle has been just really understanding that this is a
Cathy Moll:long term sales cycle. A lack of a better term, and that they're
Cathy Moll:planting the seeds to begin with, and the tree will grow.
Cathy Moll:But it won't grow. If what you're looking for is what can
Cathy Moll:you do for me today, again, you just have to have a sincere
Cathy Moll:interest in that person and understand that long term that's
Cathy Moll:going to pay off for you. And I have a story, you know,
Cathy Moll:everybody's gonna freak out when they hear this. But I had
Cathy Moll:someone that I had been calling on for seven years, several
Cathy Moll:times a year, I would reach out to her and talk to her and she
Cathy Moll:continued to move up, and she moved into new roles. Seven
Cathy Moll:years later, she called me and said, We're having difficulty
Cathy Moll:with two senior level positions, I want you to talk to the folks
Cathy Moll:in HR, and we're gonna put together an agreement, and I
Cathy Moll:want you to work on them. Because you have been so
Cathy Moll:consistent. I don't want anybody to think it takes seven years it
Cathy Moll:doesn't. But really, and truly, it's just, if you're willing to
Cathy Moll:just kind of take a step back and understand the process,
Cathy Moll:those relationships that you've built will come back to you. And
Cathy Moll:people will try to help people that they've known and built
Cathy Moll:that relationship with over the years.
Stephanie Maas:It sounds like obviously, they like you. But
Stephanie Maas:there was also such a respect for how you did business. And
Stephanie Maas:much like how you came to thinking ahead, hey, there was a
Stephanie Maas:way that we just did business, authenticity, and even curiosity
Stephanie Maas:about the person. Again, it's a business, we're all here to, you
Stephanie Maas:know, do what we need to do. But bringing that human element
Stephanie Maas:sounds like really has an opportunity to pay off down the
Stephanie Maas:road.
Cathy Moll:I think that's true. And the thing I learned a long
Cathy Moll:time ago is that people can like me, but if I don't produce for
Cathy Moll:them, that doesn't really matter. It is a business
Cathy Moll:relationship. But everybody likes doing business or talking
Cathy Moll:to people that they like, but you have to do the job.
Stephanie Maas:Yep, you got to produce. That's the way it
Stephanie Maas:works. So share with us as hopefully it will be kind of
Stephanie Maas:fun. When you started in the business. What was your you
Stephanie Maas:know, "I went to school, walked 10 feet of snow uphill both
Stephanie Maas:ways". What were some of your "well back when I started in
Stephanie Maas:search" shares, some things that you use that don't exist today
Stephanie Maas:or anything funny from 26 years ago?
Cathy Moll:So you know, I grew up in Green Bay, Wisconsin, so I
Cathy Moll:really did walk three miles uphill, to get to the globe.
Cathy Moll:This really dates me in 1997. When I started, I actually had a
Cathy Moll:candidate who I was talking to on the phone who said the
Cathy Moll:following to me, have you ever heard of Google? And I said, No.
Cathy Moll:He said to me, oh, my gosh, you have got to gotta find it. I
Cathy Moll:mean, we barely use computers. At that time, I'm not gonna lie.
Cathy Moll:We faxed resumes to people, we fax resumes to clients
Cathy Moll:candidates and to sneak into their office and when nobody was
Cathy Moll:around and back their resume to us, which was better than prior
Cathy Moll:to that when you had to mail everything. So the internet was
Cathy Moll:really just getting started, you still had to do research on
Cathy Moll:companies, people didn't have website. I mean, right now, it
Cathy Moll:is so easy for a candidate to find out who they're going to be
Cathy Moll:talking to, or find out more about the company, you know, and
Cathy Moll:we provide a lot of that information. But we always
Cathy Moll:suggest that they do research as well, well, 26 years ago, that
Cathy Moll:research meant that they literally had to go to the
Cathy Moll:library and then had to look up what they could about the
Cathy Moll:client, and you really couldn't necessarily find out information
Cathy Moll:about who was going to be interviewing them. So honestly,
Cathy Moll:I'm just thinking about this. Now, the fact that I would spend
Cathy Moll:time with the hiring manager and talking to them and getting to
Cathy Moll:know them, at that point was incredibly useful to the
Cathy Moll:candidate, because I could share that information that they
Cathy Moll:weren't going to be able to find anywhere. And so funny stories,
Cathy Moll:I had to fax an interview schedule to a candidate at the
Cathy Moll:fax number she gave me and she immediately called me like 10
Cathy Moll:minutes later and said, Oh my God, you back this to our human
Cathy Moll:resources department. Oops. And I said, Here's the phone number
Cathy Moll:that I backed it to. And it turns out that when a fax in a
Cathy Moll:department was busy, that it automatically rerouted it to
Cathy Moll:human resources. She happened to you know, somebody, I think
Cathy Moll:picked it up and gave it to her without looking at it. But those
Cathy Moll:are some of the challenges that we ran into.
Stephanie Maas:That is crazy. Fast forward to today. Now we
Stephanie Maas:have all this information at our fingertips. How do you still
Stephanie Maas:provide value when there is so much information so readily available?
Cathy Moll:I still think that what we can provide to
Cathy Moll:candidates and to client is what we've learned about the company
Cathy Moll:or the people they're going to be talking to or the candidate
Cathy Moll:by spending time with either the candidate or the hiring manager,
Cathy Moll:sort of like looking at a resume, you get an idea of what
Cathy Moll:somebody has done, but you really don't know what makes
Cathy Moll:that person who they are. And I think that the amount of time
Cathy Moll:that we spend with everybody is priceless. You know, a candidate
Cathy Moll:can say to me, Kathy, I need to make sure that I have a good
Cathy Moll:work life balance, because I have kids, and they play soccer.
Cathy Moll:And I say, and you know, one of the things that they're not
Cathy Moll:going to find, by looking up the hiring managers that the hiring
Cathy Moll:manager has kids who play soccer as well, so that she or he will
Cathy Moll:understand that you need to take some time, and you have to spend
Cathy Moll:time with family. And here's why. So you can look up a
Cathy Moll:company, and you can look up a person, but what you can't look
Cathy Moll:up is their personality, or what's important to them. And I
Cathy Moll:think those are the things that we can share on both sides of
Cathy Moll:the equation.
Stephanie Maas:Absolutely. How long is the longest relationship
Stephanie Maas:candidate or client that you've had?
Cathy Moll:So I won't name a name, but there are probably
Cathy Moll:three people that I can think of that I started working with, I
Cathy Moll:think I placed one person in maybe 2000 2000 is somewhere
Cathy Moll:around 2000. And she and I talk regularly, and I placed her
Cathy Moll:again about four or five years ago. But we stay in touch with
Cathy Moll:each other about everything, and to other people who actually
Cathy Moll:placed in one organization who have since moved on to different
Cathy Moll:places, but both have become clients along the way, helped me
Cathy Moll:to get into new companies that they had joined. So probably the
Cathy Moll:longest is I started in 97. So probably 9099. And the funny
Cathy Moll:thing is, when you talk to them, you of course know if they have
Cathy Moll:children, you know, their children were either not around
Cathy Moll:at that time and are now graduating from college, or they
Cathy Moll:have since gotten married. Yeah, it's pretty interesting. And
Cathy Moll:it's a lot of fun.
Stephanie Maas:I love that. And I think too, when you can really
Stephanie Maas:learn to enjoy people and meet them where they're at. It's a
Stephanie Maas:weird kind of byproduct of how fun this job can be. Without a doubt.
Cathy Moll:Yes, you have to have fun with this, I have
Cathy Moll:always said that our product is people. And so often we can see
Cathy Moll:how capable they are or what a great opportunity they're going
Cathy Moll:to have if if we introduce them to something but what we don't
Cathy Moll:know is necessarily what's going on for them 100% of the time
Cathy Moll:personally, and they may make a different decision, they may
Cathy Moll:come to a whole different set of reasons why they are or are not
Cathy Moll:going to move ahead. And so you need to have fun with this.
Cathy Moll:Because there's you can get really disappointed really fast.
Cathy Moll:And you just need to understand that people are going to make
Cathy Moll:decisions or what is important to them. So I try to have fun
Cathy Moll:every day.
Stephanie Maas:Awesome. Well, we hear it thinking ahead are
Stephanie Maas:super thankful for your 26th and counting years, they know our
Stephanie Maas:listeners are super thankful for your time as well. Anything else
Stephanie Maas:that you want to share for the good of our search community?
Stephanie Maas:Before I let you go?
Cathy Moll:No, I guess the only thing I would say is this. It is
Cathy Moll:an incredibly fulfilling job. When I take a look back at the
Cathy Moll:numbers of people that I've worked with and talk to and see
Cathy Moll:some of the opportunities that we've helped introduce them to
Cathy Moll:that they may not have taken a look at before and all of the
Cathy Moll:things that that has opened up for them and for their families.
Cathy Moll:It's just an incredibly rewarding thing that we do. So
Cathy Moll:have fun with it and just accept all the good that comes along
Cathy Moll:with it.
Stephanie Maas:Absolutely. All right, Cathy Moll.
Cathy Moll:Thanks Stephanie.
