Episode 10
Postgame with the Client
Find out how a well-executed client debrief can become the biggest way to promote a growing relationship with HR, and learn the value of practicing awkward silences, the psychology of insecurity, getting a blessing before sharing, being gentle, loving, and direct, and why not everybody takes the head cheerleader to the prom.
Transcript
Hi, and welcome to The Talent Trade.
Speaker:This is Stephanie Maas, partner with Thinking Ahead Executive Search.
Speaker:Today, I'm super excited to talk to you about the client debrief.
Speaker:If you have listened to my candidate debrief session, you know that thinking ahead has a couple of philosophies.
Speaker:When we go into putting deals together, one of those big philosophies, and sorry if this is a repeat of something you've already heard, but if it's not, we definitely want to make sure you get a chance to hear this.
Speaker:We believe that the recruiter's role in putting a deal together or having a deal come together Is not one of making it happen, but rather guiding the process.
Speaker:If it is meant to happen, let me expound just for a second.
Speaker:Basically, we believe that most deals, if they are meant to be, they will be meaning there's not a whole lot we can do to mess it up.
Speaker:And there's not a whole lot we can do to make it happen.
Speaker:But our role is very much that of a facilitator of helping a candidate and a client navigate a complicated, highly sophisticated process.
Speaker:Changing jobs is still in the top five, most stressful things adults go through.
Speaker:And if you ask any hiring manager, It is not their favorite part of their job.
Speaker:Trust me, if it was, they'd be working as a search firm.
Speaker:So instead our role here is to help navigate this process and make it as easy and as simple as possible for both parties.
Speaker:That's why things like a candidate or a client debrief are important.
Speaker:It helps us get some very real feedback in terms of, Hey, is this a process we should cut short and If not, if we're going to continue the process, what do we need to make sure we get answered or address or handled before it gets to the 11th hour?
Speaker:And it also gives both the candidate and the client a lot of confidence that they're doing the things they're supposed to be doing.
Speaker:So as we go into this phone call, ideally you have already spoken with the candidate so you know where their head is at.
Speaker:Secondly, I really don't like making these calls with the client on the fly.
Speaker:I really try to set up during the client prep a specific time of 15 or so minutes that the client has set aside in an appointment with me to discuss the interview.
Speaker:By the way, I absolutely welcome HR to sit in on.
Speaker:Any of these conversations, this prevents the client from having to duplicate any efforts.
Speaker:And quite frankly, it also shows HR the depth of what we do and how we do it.
Speaker:That is probably the biggest way to continue and develop a true partnership with HR.
Speaker:It's to let them see our process, let them know they're welcome to be a part of it when appropriate.
Speaker:And it really shows them the value that we add by being highly specialized recruiters.
Speaker:So we get on the phone and I'm going to assume that Tom is our hiring manager again, just like with our candidates.
Speaker:I like to, Hey Tom, thanks so much for setting aside some time for us to connect.
Speaker:Hey, before we dive in, is there anything new or different?
Speaker:In regard to the position or the search that I should know about.
Speaker:Again, we hope that if something had changed, the client would take the initiative to let us know, but quite frankly, that's not their job and they may forget or they're busier.
Speaker:They got 10 other things on their mind.
Speaker:The onus is on the recruiter to ask.
Speaker:And by the way, why would you want to spend 15, 20, 30 minutes in a client debrief only for him to say, again, I really love the candidate, but forgot to mention we put the position on hold.
Speaker:Oh, okay.
Speaker:It doesn't mean I won't get some feedback, but let me assure you that that feedback call is going to be a heck of a lot shorter if the position has been on hold or if they have found an internal candidate that they need to pursue first.
Speaker:So let's start with that.
Speaker:Anything new or different on the role since the last time?
Speaker:We spoke.
Speaker:Get that information.
Speaker:The next thing is the agenda.
Speaker:So we've already asked if there's anything new or different.
Speaker:Hey, Tom, real quick.
Speaker:My agenda for our call today is super simple.
Speaker:Wanted to hear how the interview went from your perspective.
Speaker:I want to share with you a little bit about what I heard from the candidate.
Speaker:How does that sound?
Speaker:Again, what you're doing there is getting buy in for their participation.
Speaker:Then I start with a broad question.
Speaker:So Tom, tell me, how did it go?
Speaker:Zip it and listen.
Speaker:I want that question to be broad because wherever he starts, that is letting me know what's on his mind.
Speaker:If he loved the candidate, usually that's where he's going to start.
Speaker:If there's a lot of concerns, that's where he will start or she, by the way, gender neutral here.
Speaker:So I want to start broad.
Speaker:So, how did it go?
Speaker:What did you think of such and such?
Speaker:If you're dealing with verbal processors, they will let the information flow and your job is to not interrupt, take good notes and really listen.
Speaker:If they are not a verbal processor, you may have to throw in additional questions to get the information out.
Speaker:But again, I caution you about.
Speaker:Over talking.
Speaker:I caution you about over asking and not allowing for quiet so they can keep talking.
Speaker:I believe when you're in a listening mode, most people speak in half sentences.
Speaker:And when we cut them off, they focus on what we're saying instead of finishing their thoughts.
Speaker:So this is a great place to practice awkward silences.
Speaker:By human nature is we don't like awkward silences and as the recruiter, we will typically jump in to eliminate them.
Speaker:But I caution you not to let there be some awkward silence and let them start talking again.
Speaker:If after five or so seconds, it's absolutely still quiet.
Speaker:Then you can jump in with an open ended question to keep them talking.
Speaker:So start broad in a general sense for how it went.
Speaker:Then you can go into the specifics.
Speaker:I like to start with the technical things first.
Speaker:Hey, I'm curious, how do you think their skillset matched that of the job?
Speaker:And again, you're going to have prepped them already.
Speaker:So you just go back and ask the same questions that you told them to ask and see what we've got answered.
Speaker:So technically, how are they going to fit in the job?
Speaker:How do you see them being able to excel?
Speaker:What challenges do you think they'll have in the role?
Speaker:How do you think they would handle those kinds of challenges?
Speaker:Then you talk about culture.
Speaker:How do you think they'd fit in with the rest of the team, the rest of the organization?
Speaker:Then you can talk to big picture type of things.
Speaker:If they had mentioned they needed someone they could grow with, talk to them about that.
Speaker:Let them talk, let them go.
Speaker:I also do comparison.
Speaker:How does this person And again, you want to mention their specific name.
Speaker:How does Sean compare with other candidates you've looked at for this role recently?
Speaker:And again, there's some key things in there.
Speaker:Number one, you want to say recently, because if they hired a superstar three years ago, but they've seen nothing but crap sense, what they're going to do in their mind is compare them to the superstar, which is generally okay.
Speaker:Except if they haven't seen another rockstar in a while, you may be setting yourself up for an impossible fill.
Speaker:But if they've seen a lot of really good candidates, then your candidates are going to have to be exceptional.
Speaker:But if they've seen a lot of crap, this kind of helps remind them that you represent the cream of the crop.
Speaker:So you ask the comparison.
Speaker:I also like to be direct with concerns or hesitations.
Speaker:Hey, are there any concerns or hesitations about their candidacy that in your next meeting you want to make sure you get addressed?
Speaker:Again, very specific about what you're asking.
Speaker:You're planting that seed about a possible next meeting.
Speaker:Then I go into a little bit of a summary mode.
Speaker:At this point, we are absolutely assuming you're getting positive feedback.
Speaker:I'll walk through how to handle it.
Speaker:If you don't in a minute, let's stay on the positive track for now.
Speaker:So hiring manager, let me just go back and make sure I'm sharing you correctly.
Speaker:So in your time with Susan, you mentioned you thought that she technically would be good at dot, dot, dot.
Speaker:You like how you thought she would fit in with a team because of dot, dot, dot.
Speaker:And again, you summarize quickly to make sure you've got what they said.
Speaker:If you're wrong about something, it gives them an opportunity to correct it.
Speaker:And then lastly, if you're right, it reiterates, yes, those are the things I like.
Speaker:This is why I like them, so forth and so on.
Speaker:Okay.
Speaker:Hey, I'm just curious, hiring manager, was there anything in your time with Susan that you guys didn't get to that you were hoping to?
Speaker:I also asked directly.
Speaker:Did you talk about money or compensation?
Speaker:I know I told you not to.
Speaker:Ha ha ha.
Speaker:But did you do it anyway?
Speaker:And if so, how did that go?
Speaker:By the way, about 50 percent of my hiring managers, even when I tell them not to talk about money, they can't help themselves.
Speaker:They're so used to it.
Speaker:And I let them off the hook.
Speaker:At the same time, if they did, I absolutely want to know what was said, because at the end of the day, if we get to an offer stage, I'm the one doing the negotiating and I need to know what was promised or what was talked about.
Speaker:The next thing I like to do is to share the candidate's feedback.
Speaker:Now, with that being said, I do have some clients that want to hear what the candidate said first.
Speaker:So if that's the case, and by the way, that's normal human psychology.
Speaker:It's a sign of insecurity of, you know, before I tell you if I liked it or not, what did they think?
Speaker:And that's fine.
Speaker:I'll give them something short and sweet.
Speaker:Hey, I do have to tell you, I got some very positive feedback from Susan.
Speaker:She really enjoyed the time together.
Speaker:I definitely want to share with you a few other things, but before I do tell me what you thought, let's make sure we're on the same page.
Speaker:Then I go through, then I jump into the client's debrief.
Speaker:Then we come back to, let me share with some specifics.
Speaker:And again, I highlight a positive from each of those three categories positives about the hiring manager positives about the role and positives about the organization.
Speaker:Then I go in to start setting up the next step.
Speaker:Hey, Tom, in whatever next step there is with Susan, what else do you need to learn about her or skillset?
Speaker:Et cetera, what would be important from an information gathering perspective as we continue this process?
Speaker:And then typically, I'll say, hey, typically, what what is your next step?
Speaker:Who would you need to meet with?
Speaker:We go through some of those details.
Speaker:And at this point too, I will let him know, Hey, in some of the feedback from Susan, one of the things she was hoping in terms of next step was to get some more information regarding X, Y, and Z.
Speaker:So when we go to set that up, let's make sure there's someone there that she can talk to about that.
Speaker:And again, this is where we add so much value recruiting today, especially in the talent market we are in.
Speaker:It's the tightest labor economy of our lifetime.
Speaker:So every shot on goal.
Speaker:Has to count.
Speaker:This is where the value comes in.
Speaker:This is where you're setting up your hiring manager, not just for a shot on goal, but a really, really good shot on goal.
Speaker:Both parties have expressed interest.
Speaker:Now you continue to help customize the recruiting process.
Speaker:So that if this deal is meant to be, it can come together, you talk through next steps, who else needs to be involved.
Speaker:And I like to ask the question too, Hey, is there anyone else other than me in HR you need to talk with or share this feedback with before we get the green light to move?
Speaker:To the next step, one of my biggest pet peeves is when I'm talking to a hiring manager.
Speaker:And by the way, this is a hundred percent on the recruiter.
Speaker:If it happens, they go, Oh my gosh, I'd love season.
Speaker:I want to bring her back in and I'm all excited and everyone's all excited.
Speaker:We're full steam ahead.
Speaker:And I say, okay, I'm going to send you an email, send me your availability, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker:And then the email response I get is, Hey, uh, I was talking with my boss and we're going to hold off on the next step.
Speaker:Not sure.
Speaker:Dot, dot, dot.
Speaker:Nothing frustrates me more because most of the time by then I've already gone and told Susan, there's going to be a next step.
Speaker:So again, putting the onus on the recruiter, you say, Hey, is there anyone else we got to get a green light from before we move this process forward?
Speaker:Then you talk about next step, start working on getting that set up again, this whole thing, 15, 20 minutes.
Speaker:Thank them for their time say, Hey, Tom, I really appreciate your time.
Speaker:I told Susan, I would share with her your feedback.
Speaker:This is what I'm going to share with her, share a couple of positives and then let the hiring manager know, Hey, these are the couple of things you said you'd be important to know more about so that she can be prepared for the next meeting and you get their blessing on what you're going to share.
Speaker:The other thing too, oftentimes we have multiple candidates in the process.
Speaker:Hiring managers can be slightly apprehensive about going all in on one candidate.
Speaker:Hey, we really did like Susan in my mind.
Speaker:She might be the number two pick out of the three candidates we're looking at.
Speaker:Well, I'm probably not going to go run, tell Susan she's a number two unless I've already gotten permission to do so, but I will coach that client, but here's how I'm going to recommend that we handle the situation because quite frankly, number twos get the job all the time.
Speaker:Here's what I'm going to say.
Speaker:This is what we like.
Speaker:This is where we want to learn more.
Speaker:And I will remind her she is one of three candidates interviewing and that while we absolutely really liked her, we have to continue to vet the candidates before we make a final decision.
Speaker:Clients appreciate that so much because it takes undue pressure off them, but it also allows us to manage.
Speaker:Egos and expectations throughout the process.
Speaker:So even if somebody is number two in the process, not everybody takes the head cheerleader to the prom.
Speaker:I've loved that quote as it relates to this, because not everybody gets their first choice, but oftentimes.
Speaker:The second choice works out just as well, if not better, it might be one of those things where our first choice is fantasy pick.
Speaker:So this helps us work with the candidates and setting proper expectations for the candidate.
Speaker:Hey, I will remind them they are one of three.
Speaker:We're not going to make any final decisions.
Speaker:So all the candidates are vetted properly.
Speaker:But I will absolutely let her know we're sincere in our interest.
Speaker:And by the way, that's pretty much exactly what I'll say.
Speaker:Then when I go back to the candidate, Hey, Susan, just got off the phone with Tom.
Speaker:That's a positive feedback.
Speaker:Here are the three things they liked about you in the next step.
Speaker:If you're still interested, these are a couple of things more they want to learn about.
Speaker:And Hey, just from an expectation standpoint, I do again, just want to remind you, you're one of three candidates are interviewing.
Speaker:Their interest is very sincere, but they won't make a final decision until all three candidates are vetted and most candidates are like, yeah, okay, got it.
Speaker:Check.
Speaker:Now, if the feedback I get from the client, I'm gonna shift gears here slightly.
Speaker:If the feedback I get is that the person was not a fit, I do try to get one or two nuggets that are specific to the candidate that I can share with the candidate.
Speaker:If it's something technical, then I make sure the client knows that that's what I'm going to share.
Speaker:Hey, one of the things they were really hoping for was that you would have had a little bit more direct experience with dot, dot, dot.
Speaker:Or if they're a more junior candidate and they have senior candidates, I do share that.
Speaker:Hey, there's why they're certainly open to a more junior candidate, which is why I called you to begin with.
Speaker:The market is bearing two other candidates that have more experience and at this time they're going to.
Speaker:Pursue somebody with a little bit more experience.
Speaker:Now, the awkwardness always comes in in one of two scenarios.
Speaker:One, if it wasn't a cultural fit, which by the way is a vague response to, they either just didn't like them or they did something wrong in the interview.
Speaker:Not wrong, but something that the hiring manager didn't like.
Speaker:And if that is the case, again, you gotta spend time.
Speaker:People don't like a just wasn't a cultural fit.
Speaker:And this is hard.
Speaker:And this is where you have to be a grownup to share feedback.
Speaker:Hey, and he said they weren't a cultural fit hiring manager.
Speaker:And I appreciate that.
Speaker:I don't want you to say anything that could legally get you in trouble.
Speaker:Help me understand what that means and how I can communicate that appropriately to the candidate.
Speaker:And you find something specific that you can take back.
Speaker:Now, sometimes quite frankly, somebody did something wrong.
Speaker:They talk too much.
Speaker:They were arrogant.
Speaker:They misrepresented themselves.
Speaker:You know, my biggest one is I get talkers.
Speaker:You know, they asked a simple question and 25 minutes later they were still talking and never answered the question.
Speaker:I put that in.
Speaker:They didn't have interview self awareness.
Speaker:I will tell you that is super hard feedback to share, but if that person has any hope of navigating an interview process with or without you, they have got to hear it.
Speaker:I do try to deliver that feedback gently and lovingly, but directly.
Speaker:Hey, Susan, even though at first blush, they felt like your skill set was a good match.
Speaker:One of the challenges that they had in the interview was a little bit of a difficulty getting direct, clear, and concise answers.
Speaker:To some of their questions.
Speaker:And here is an example.
Speaker:And most of the time they'll go, yep, yep.
Speaker:I knew I talked too much by the way, if they can own that in the debrief, that's a great thing to bring to the client.
Speaker:Hey client, I want to bring this up right away.
Speaker:When I talked to Susan, one of the things that she mentioned right away is her nerve.
Speaker:She hasn't interviewed in five years.
Speaker:Her nerves got the best of her.
Speaker:And she felt like she way overtalked.
Speaker:There were a couple of questions that you asked that she doesn't even know if she, at the end of the day, answered them.
Speaker:But if you'd be willing, she'd like to send you an email that clearly and concisely directs those questions.
Speaker:Would that be okay?
Speaker:And again, if the hiring manager was on the fence, but you can come with that information most of the time they go, you know what, yeah, I did kind of like her, but yeah, she did talk a lot.
Speaker:So let's, let's see how she does in written form.
Speaker:And especially if it's, Hey, they haven't interviewed in a while.
Speaker:Most people can be very gracious and show a lot of empathy.
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:She didn't answer those questions.
Speaker:Well, wow.
Speaker:How self aware of her was that?
Speaker:Yeah.
Speaker:I'd welcome that email.
Speaker:And again, it's not about creating deals where they weren't going to happen, but it's allowing us to help navigate this trickiness.
Speaker:Lastly, wrap things up, thank the client for their time, communicate about next steps, whatever they may be, and go from there.
Speaker:And that is your client debrief.
