Episode 25

Becoming a Legal Eagle

Published on: 7th November, 2024

Stephanie is joined by Jennifer White from ThinkingAhead’s legal recruiting space, who shares the unique challenges and rewards of working with firms, explains retained vs. contingency searches, partners vs. vendors, and more wisdom from her top-producing desk.

Discover what sets ThinkingAhead apart, hear stories from recruiters, and browse opportunities by clicking here.

Transcript
Stephanie Maas:

Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade. I

Stephanie Maas:

am your host. Stephanie Maas, partner with ThinkingAhead

Stephanie Maas:

Executive Search, and today, I am super jazzed to have one of

Stephanie Maas:

the best of the best in the business with us today. Jenn

Stephanie Maas:

White joined our firm three years ago. She came out of the

Stephanie Maas:

gates swinging. She broke our 20 plus year top first year record,

Stephanie Maas:

and has been a top producer every year since then in the

Stephanie Maas:

legal recruiting space. Super happy to have you with us and

Stephanie Maas:

Jenn, I'll let you tell us a little bit more about you and

Stephanie Maas:

your niche, and then we'll dive into our topic.

Jennifer White:

Thank you so much. Steph, yes, I joined three

Jennifer White:

years ago in the legal space. I have been in sales and marketing

Jennifer White:

for, I would say, my entire career, in one aspect or the

Jennifer White:

other. And I love recruiting for law firms and for attorneys.

Jennifer White:

It's a great group of people to get to know and to chat with.

Jennifer White:

Most attorneys are networkers at heart, because they have their

Jennifer White:

own kind of sense of book of business that they're trying to

Jennifer White:

build. So in ways, we kind of line up in that in that sense.

Jennifer White:

So I really, really enjoyed it. We have a wonderful team, and my

Jennifer White:

coworkers on my team I just love so I feel very blessed to be

Jennifer White:

here.

Stephanie Maas:

We're super, super thankful to have you. So

Stephanie Maas:

today, Jenn, my understanding is you are going to lead us through

Stephanie Maas:

a little bit of a discussion as it relates to partnership versus

Stephanie Maas:

vendor, all that stuff in the legal recruiting business.

Jennifer White:

So a lot of times, the way that things work

Jennifer White:

when you are in the legal recruiting field is there's

Jennifer White:

different types of ways that you can partner with law firms. The

Jennifer White:

law firms are considered the client and the attorneys are

Jennifer White:

considered the candidate. And if you can kind of liken it a

Jennifer White:

little bit to real estate, where the clients are the sellers, and

Jennifer White:

then the candidates are the buyers. So what you're trying to

Jennifer White:

do is get to know your clients, your firms, as much as possible,

Jennifer White:

and be able to have the respect that they would be calling you.

Jennifer White:

So what I thought would be a good idea is to kind of go

Jennifer White:

through the steps of how to get to be at the desk in the C suite

Jennifer White:

with these firms. So there's different types of searches that

Jennifer White:

you have. You can start out with a contingent search, which

Jennifer White:

basically means they have a need, and they're sending it out

Jennifer White:

to all the recruiters out there and candidates alike. Sometimes

Jennifer White:

it will be posted on their on their firm websites. That's a

Jennifer White:

little bit like acting like you're a sports agent, so you

Jennifer White:

have the talent, and you're kind of shopping them around to each

Jennifer White:

of these firms. So that's that's the contingent basis. Everyone

Jennifer White:

has the same shot at the person that you are working with, the

Jennifer White:

candidate. So the good thing about that is that you have a

Jennifer White:

lot of shots on goal. You can have this candidate go out to

Jennifer White:

different types of firms. However, there's no guarantee

Jennifer White:

that you're going to get paid, so sometimes what you do is

Jennifer White:

you'll try to have that firm, a firm in particular, be a client

Jennifer White:

that you want to have a retained search with. And what that means

Jennifer White:

is that you're identifying a firm that you feel like has

Jennifer White:

great opportunities. Because I think that's one thing, is

Jennifer White:

identifying which firms you want to work with is just as key as

Jennifer White:

them identifying which recruiters. Because if you have

Jennifer White:

a search that no one wants, and it's a it's a dog search, then

Jennifer White:

you're really kind of shitting yourself in the foot. Because

Jennifer White:

even though you may get money up front, you are probably not

Jennifer White:

going to get the rest of that money, because it's a really

Jennifer White:

difficult sign. So when you identify the firm and you

Jennifer White:

realize that it's a great firm that you want to work with,

Jennifer White:

that's number one. But you have to make sure that the firm's

Jennifer White:

good. You're going to have a successful search. It's actually

Jennifer White:

something that people are going to want to join. That's kind of

Jennifer White:

what I think it's important for people to realize you don't just

Jennifer White:

want to work with anyone. And then the approach of how you

Jennifer White:

want to work with these firms can be either you identified

Jennifer White:

them and you've never worked with them and never placed with

Jennifer White:

them, but you've always known about them, and you're going to

Jennifer White:

pitch that routine search right off the bat. Then there's the

Jennifer White:

way that you have worked with them in the contingent side.

Jennifer White:

That's kind of how I like to do it, because you kind of want to

Jennifer White:

work and you kind of want to place somebody at these firms.

Jennifer White:

You want to know the entire process from start to finish,

Jennifer White:

because when you're going to retain search, you're really

Jennifer White:

promising them that they will find the talent they're paying

Jennifer White:

you, and it's only you searching for them. So knowing the ins and

Jennifer White:

out of that firm, I think, is really important. So the

Jennifer White:

approach would be, in my opinion, work with them on a

Jennifer White:

contingent basis. Then if you want to go in and then have the

Jennifer White:

retained basis, you kind of understand some bumps up front,

Jennifer White:

and you're not kind of setting yourself up for disappointment.

Jennifer White:

But that being said, it's definitely fine to go ahead and

Jennifer White:

pitch for the retained if it's a firm that you feel like you want

Jennifer White:

to work with and you feel like it's a great shot. So I don't

Jennifer White:

want to sway anyone that way. But my approach, I like to kind

Jennifer White:

of go with the contingent and then retained, and then once you

Jennifer White:

do have that ability to partner with a firm, it's really great

Jennifer White:

to make sure that you know who the key players are. A lot of

Jennifer White:

times in these firms, especially with legal, they always use

Jennifer White:

recruiter, so there'll be an in house recruiter that you might

Jennifer White:

have the the initial conversations with, which is

Jennifer White:

great. They're usually really good at what they do. They're

Jennifer White:

going to be able to lead you down the path and have your

Jennifer White:

pitch kick off. But what I would recommend too, is having the

Jennifer White:

discussion with them that if things are getting a little

Jennifer White:

sticky, a little hairy, you're bringing in some candidates that

Jennifer White:

you feel like they should be hiring, and it's not going well.

Jennifer White:

Make sure you have the ability to reach out to the managing

Jennifer White:

partners one on one, because sometimes things just get lost

Jennifer White:

in a shuffle. Sometimes, you know, playing operator, what you

Jennifer White:

think you're hearing, and what you think with and what they're

Jennifer White:

saying might not be exactly coming across. So you just want

Jennifer White:

to make sure that you have a clear line to the decision

Jennifer White:

makers. Definitely talk to the people that you're supposed to

Jennifer White:

talk to. You don't want to go around anyone's back, but make

Jennifer White:

sure that if things are not going as well as planned, that

Jennifer White:

you do have the ability to go right to the horse's mouth and

Jennifer White:

the decision maker. And then the other thing too that's important

Jennifer White:

to focus on when you are partnering with a firm is

Jennifer White:

maintaining those objectives and maintaining the satisfaction

Jennifer White:

level that that you were promising them. If you feel like

Jennifer White:

there's something that's happening that is not going well

Jennifer White:

either, whether or not the candidate is you're not being

Jennifer White:

able to find the candidates. Because that's one thing too

Jennifer White:

that can be a little bit nerve wracking. You can get these

Jennifer White:

pitches. You can be at the table with them. You can tell them,

Jennifer White:

hey, I'm going to be able to find this candidate. Don't

Jennifer White:

worry. And you go out there and it's just the toughest search

Jennifer White:

that you could ever work on. Be honest and let them know you're

Jennifer White:

going to be showing your work. You're going to be showing your

Jennifer White:

efforts. You're going to be having your bi weekly meetings

Jennifer White:

with them, telling Hey, I've made 100 calls this week. I've

Jennifer White:

had this reaction to this search. And I think the other

Jennifer White:

thing too is making sure that you feel honest enough to give

Jennifer White:

them that honest feedback. Sometimes, you know, a managing

Jennifer White:

partner may be really difficult to work with, and they have a

Jennifer White:

reputation that could be something that you find out

Jennifer White:

after you already signed the dotted line and gotten your

Jennifer White:

retained deposit down. So you just want to make sure that

Jennifer White:

you're always just tactfully showing them what it is that

Jennifer White:

they need to say. Because look, if they know the managing

Jennifer White:

partner, might be difficult. They never were told that. So

Jennifer White:

either way, good news, bad news, I think, is also what you want

Jennifer White:

to do in order to maintain that relationship with them. Think

Jennifer White:

the other thing too is, is that sometimes things may not work

Jennifer White:

out as well as you had hoped. So you have to remember that there

Jennifer White:

might be a time for you to pivot away from that relationship, in

Jennifer White:

a sense. So if that's the case, just make sure you're not

Jennifer White:

burning any bridges. Do your best that you can do. I think

Jennifer White:

the other thing too is helping to have that communication of

Jennifer White:

how often you should be communicating with them during

Jennifer White:

the search, if you are doing everything that you could if

Jennifer White:

they wanted you to get them all this information. And it didn't

Jennifer White:

go well, still, I think the thing that you can always do is

Jennifer White:

just say, hey, you know what? I respect you guys. I think that

Jennifer White:

I've tapped the market out. Maybe it's time for you guys to

Jennifer White:

go find another recruiter that you feel like might have a fresh

Jennifer White:

eye. So it's just kind of important to make sure that you

Jennifer White:

also have that ability to kind of part ways and not have to

Jennifer White:

always just hang on to that one particular client, because once

Jennifer White:

you do sit at that table, you're going to be having a lot of time

Jennifer White:

and effort from your own desk searching for this particular

Jennifer White:

search. So you just want to make sure that you're still able to

Jennifer White:

keep some things, some irons in the fire while you're busy with

Jennifer White:

that.

Stephanie Maas:

Super cool. I'm gonna go back and ask a couple

Stephanie Maas:

questions along the way that I think might be super helpful. I

Stephanie Maas:

know a lot of folks get pushed back from internal talent

Stephanie Maas:

acquisition folks about working directly with the hiring

Stephanie Maas:

manager, and I would imagine, especially in your niche, with

Stephanie Maas:

attorneys billing by the hour with some of the language, or

Stephanie Maas:

what are some of the ways that you're able to kind of break

Stephanie Maas:

through that internal stiff farm to really get the time and

Stephanie Maas:

attention of the decision makers.

Jennifer White:

I think that for one if you are exhausting the

Jennifer White:

limit to where you are with that one particular person who you're

Jennifer White:

supposed to quote, unquote, be working with, if you feel like

Jennifer White:

things are just not going well that I have in in the past, just

Jennifer White:

reached out directly to that managing partner. Don't worry

Jennifer White:

about it. Email them say, Hey, I think that there's been a couple

Jennifer White:

of miscommunications. Or hey, this candidate seems to be add

Jennifer White:

everything that you have looked for. I'm not sure why things

Jennifer White:

aren't progressing. The way that they should. I would love just

Jennifer White:

to bend your ear five minutes at the most. Can you let me know

Jennifer White:

if, after hours I could, I could have a conversation with you.

Jennifer White:

That's usually when they'll be a little bit more receptive. I

Jennifer White:

mean, what I did have this conversation, it was at 730 at

Jennifer White:

night. I didn't care. They didn't care. But it was kind of

Jennifer White:

meeting them where they needed to be. I think that that's the

Jennifer White:

other thing too, is give them the opportunity to kind of be

Jennifer White:

outside of work hours to talk.

Stephanie Maas:

And then when you do that, do you ever get

Stephanie Maas:

that proverbial slap on the wrist saying, Hey, I told you

Stephanie Maas:

not to communicate with them. And if so, how do you handle

Stephanie Maas:

that?

Jennifer White:

So I haven't actually had that with a

Jennifer White:

retained search situation, so I can go to the contingency in a

Jennifer White:

second. But when I'm working as a retained search, I feel like

Jennifer White:

they understand that my job is to get the candidate the right

Jennifer White:

candidate. So I apologized in the sentence I said, I'm sorry

Jennifer White:

if I'm stepping on any toes. I just want to let you know I'm

Jennifer White:

going to have a conversation with XYZ tonight at 730 You guys

Jennifer White:

are amazing. I will make you look great when I'm talking to

Jennifer White:

him. Don't worry. Alleviated any sense of gosh, they just start

Jennifer White:

getting it, um, I just said to them, Hey, don't worry. I'm

Jennifer White:

going to be your biggest fan, but I'm here. I want to make you

Jennifer White:

look good, so I'm going to go right to them and see what the

Jennifer White:

situation is. From the standpoint of, yes, I've had my

Jennifer White:

hand slot a couple of times on not many but like, you don't

Jennifer White:

mean to do it. Sometimes it's by accident. You don't realize the

Jennifer White:

protocol. And when that happens, they can just say, Hey, this is

Jennifer White:

your one chance. We understand that you didn't understand that

Jennifer White:

you shouldn't be contacting them. But when that happens, you

Jennifer White:

know, it happens a lot. Honestly, I think that they're

Jennifer White:

kind of used to recruiters. I mean, look, we're sales people.

Jennifer White:

You have to have a certain assertiveness in your

Jennifer White:

personality to begin with. You don't want to do it all the

Jennifer White:

time. But if it's, if it's something that you feel like is,

Jennifer White:

you know, gonna, gonna let it a fire for this particular

Jennifer White:

candidate to come in. Then, you know, you just gotta kind of ask

Jennifer White:

for forgiveness instead of permission, sometimes.

Stephanie Maas:

Absolutely. And then going back to something

Stephanie Maas:

else you said earlier about, you know, identifying the kind of

Stephanie Maas:

companies that you want to work with, you know, it's one thing

Stephanie Maas:

when you've been in a niche for a while, and you know

Stephanie Maas:

reputations of organizations. You know, reputations, but when

Stephanie Maas:

you're newer, how do you determine, you know, hey, what

Stephanie Maas:

are some key identifiers I'm going to look for when taking a

Stephanie Maas:

new search or looking for a new partnership?

Jennifer White:

When you're starting out in the legal

Jennifer White:

industry, I think it's smart first of all, to have a

Jennifer White:

geographical area that you're working with because that that

Jennifer White:

will just kind of keep your knowledge as you're making these

Jennifer White:

calls, connecting with either managing partners, other

Jennifer White:

recruiters, other attorneys. They're going to know people

Jennifer White:

more. So you kind of want to just dive into those

Jennifer White:

conversations, make those calls, ask about certain firms from

Jennifer White:

people that you see had worked there and left. How did you

Jennifer White:

leave? Was it on good terms? If you kind of get the sense that

Jennifer White:

people leave on good terms a lot, and that it was more just

Jennifer White:

kind of an opportunistic I kind of hit my ceiling, then you'll

Jennifer White:

kind of get a sense to, hey, you know what? That firm actually

Jennifer White:

isn't a bad firm. They're not because you'll, you'll hear the

Jennifer White:

bad firms better than, more than the the good firms, the good

Jennifer White:

firms, you know, it's almost like, if there's nothing said,

Jennifer White:

then that's kind of a good that's a good talent pool to

Jennifer White:

kind of, you know, to recruit for it. But I think also, most

Jennifer White:

of these firms should be doing a good job of selling themselves

Jennifer White:

to recruiters, because they rely on us. So what I'll do is, I'll

Jennifer White:

call the director of the recruiting and I'll say, because

Jennifer White:

the managing partners really don't have, I mean, they're not

Jennifer White:

really there to sell to candidates necessarily. They're

Jennifer White:

there to sell to their clients, to get the book of business. So

Jennifer White:

from that standpoint, they do have a pretty good pitch. But

Jennifer White:

from a culture standpoint, from a benefit standpoint, from a

Jennifer White:

path to partnership standpoint, most of the legal firms around

Jennifer White:

the United States especially, have the ability to give you

Jennifer White:

even a marketing pitch book. They'll give it to you, and

Jennifer White:

they'll say, This is what makes us different. These are the type

Jennifer White:

of clients. This is the path to partnership. And you'll end up

Jennifer White:

learning about these firms. And then you choose what you like,

Jennifer White:

you know like, personally, when I heard about a firm that said,

Jennifer White:

hey, you know what we're we're boutique, but we're kind of

Jennifer White:

California chic, where we come in, we're allowed to wear jeans

Jennifer White:

as long as we look professional. You know, we work hard, we play

Jennifer White:

hard. That's kind of my mentality. So it's easy for me

Jennifer White:

to understand the benefits of that. Now, if I were to go to a

Jennifer White:

firm that's like, listen, we're super buttoned up. We stay here

Jennifer White:

for 1720, years. I can sell it, sure, but it's easier to kind of

Jennifer White:

know what firm I would want to be working for, and then that's

Jennifer White:

kind of how I decide, because you just have that passion about

Jennifer White:

it, and you can tell when you're kind of selling it to a

Jennifer White:

candidate. So it's kind of, I think, get your own taste and

Jennifer White:

your own person. Aspect of it, if you like, it'll be easier.

Stephanie Maas:

Very cool, super helpful. Have you ever kind of

Stephanie Maas:

said, Hey, I've done everything I could try to leave it the best

Stephanie Maas:

way you can, and then after a period of time, come back to

Stephanie Maas:

work with them again?

Jennifer White:

Definitely. So there were a couple of firms

Jennifer White:

that I was just in their back pocket texting. I was their

Jennifer White:

number one kind of, you know, reach out to then I kind of got

Jennifer White:

busier with some other things going on. So it kind of

Jennifer White:

gradually just drifted away. There was no reason. There was

Jennifer White:

no hard feelings. But you just, kind of, you kind of went your

Jennifer White:

way. I just pick up the phone and call them. We have them, and

Jennifer White:

say, Hey, long time. No Talk. Listen, I see this search. Tell

Jennifer White:

me about it. You just, kind of just keep it pragmatic, you

Jennifer White:

know. Don't be like, Hey, I'm so sorry. We weren't taught it's

Jennifer White:

business, you know. So you just go back if you feel like you

Jennifer White:

find something, and you found something on that they have out

Jennifer White:

on their searches, or if they sent an email about, hey, we

Jennifer White:

need help, you just kind of dive back in. I mean, you're going to

Jennifer White:

have different pools that you're going to hang out with

Jennifer White:

throughout your entire career, hopefully, if you have a long

Jennifer White:

career here. So that's just going to kind of happen I think.

Stephanie Maas:

Anything else we have not talked about that you

Stephanie Maas:

think might be helpful for the good of our listeners?

Jennifer White:

I think one of the things that we have to

Jennifer White:

remember as recruiters is there's enough to go around. I

Jennifer White:

think that, you know, people can get a little bit territorial

Jennifer White:

and, you know, they get a little bit like, they'll just kind of

Jennifer White:

throw the resumes out there and not really care about whether or

Jennifer White:

not it's the right fit. I think that we all, just as recruiters,

Jennifer White:

have to remember that we're all trying to do our best and to

Jennifer White:

lean into each other more. I think that that would be really

Jennifer White:

helpful, you know, give each other pats in the back. So

Jennifer White:

that's one thing that I would like to start seeing a little

Jennifer White:

bit more. I have been seeing it more, but this type of legal

Jennifer White:

recruiting, especially is getting extremely saturated. So

Jennifer White:

I think that if you know if you're working with if I work

Jennifer White:

with a candidate, and they say that they're working with

Jennifer White:

another recruiter, I always say to them, you know, I would

Jennifer White:

really appreciate if you let them know that you are going to

Jennifer White:

pivot. Don't just go blank on because we don't get paid until

Jennifer White:

we place somebody. So I think that that's kind of one of the

Jennifer White:

things that you know, what goes around, comes around, is

Jennifer White:

something that I try to really think about. And I think that

Jennifer White:

if, if you are thinking about getting into this, or if you

Jennifer White:

already are a recruiter and you're successful, or if you're

Jennifer White:

having a hard time, definitely reach out to me. I would love to

Jennifer White:

network. I would love to chat. I'm always here to kind of help

Jennifer White:

out my fellow recruiter.

Stephanie Maas:

That's awesome. Man, thank you so much for

Stephanie Maas:

joining us sharing some of your wisdom. Really appreciate your

Stephanie Maas:

time and energy here.

Jennifer White:

Thank you so much. Steph, it's always so

Jennifer White:

great to chat with you.

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About the Podcast

The Talent Trade
Presented by ThinkingAhead Executive Search
The Talent Trade is all about finding the right person, for the right opportunity, at the right time. But how exactly do you do that the "right" way? Executive Search Partner and Top Biller Stephanie Maas shares more than 25 years of experience about what it takes to be a top recruiter in today's "talent trade" market, using ThinkingAhead’s four-prong system focused on recruiting, business development, planning, and managing your mindset. It’s real, honest information about how to build your desk, perfect your niche, and stand out among the crowd in your search career.



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