Fail Faster

Stephanie Maas: 00:00:00

Hello and welcome to The Talent Trade.

Stephanie Maas: 00:00:03

This is your host, Stephanie Maas, Partner with ThinkingAhead

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Executive Search, and today, I am super excited to have

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probably one of the all time greats with us from

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ThinkingAhead, Brian Vogt. Brian was once again, our top

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producer. Couple things I think everyone should know about

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Brian, and help you, hopefully get excited to hear what he

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wants to share with us today. Brian does this job the good old

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fashioned way. He's incredibly well planned. He's very process

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oriented. He's a phone guy, which is, I think, a little bit

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of a novelty in his niche. He's diligent and consistent in his

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work effort. It's no wonder he's been our top producer for

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several years. The second thing I think you should know is Brian

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is uniquely humble in his success and how he does what he

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does. However, he has an alter ego named Brian that is not so

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humble. So often we have to call on Brian to brag on Brian. Not

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sure who we're going to get today, Brian, super excited to

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have you here, and not sure which Brian we're getting, but

Stephanie Maas: 00:01:17

whoever is here, we're happy to have you.

Brian Vogt: 00:01:20

Thank you, Stephanie, appreciate that there

Brian Vogt: 00:01:22

was a couple things that I thought was important to chat

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about. One of the big things what I've learned about this

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over the years is a lot of the psychology associated with what

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we do, and one of the things that's always dumbfounded me has

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been trying to get to know what's really in the head of our

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candidates. What are they really thinking? It always seems to me

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like I never quite know what the real reason why they're open to

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making a change until we get late in the process. And so one

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of the things I've I've done is really changed how I ask

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questions to candidates and learning to ask indirect

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questions to them. Probably most recruiters do a good job of

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during debrief calls or even prep calls, of asking

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candidates. So tell me who you turn to when you make these

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kinds of big decisions, whether it's a significant other,

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whether it's a parent a friend, what I've learned to do over the

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years is ask, instead of directly asking them what they

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think of these things, it's asking them. So tell me that

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important person in your life that helps you make these

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decisions. What do they think of this opportunity? What are the

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things that they're saying? So Stephanie, I'm going to I'm

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going to ask you a question. If I were to ask you, tell me how I

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was going to actually ask, How would I describe you? But I

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don't want to do that to you. I think that would be kind of

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rough. But if I were to ask your children, how would they

Brian Vogt: 00:02:56

describe you as a mother, what do you think they would say?

Stephanie Maas: 00:03:00

Depending on the day, I think they would say I

Stephanie Maas: 00:03:02

was very silly. My silliness is probably a little bit annoying,

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but I wear that like a badge of honor, because honestly, if

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you're not annoying your kids, you're doing something wrong. I

Stephanie Maas: 00:03:11

think they would say I'm incredibly loving and would do

Stephanie Maas: 00:03:14

anything for them.

Brian Vogt: 00:03:15

No, that's great. I think that's awesome. But what

Brian Vogt: 00:03:18

just happened is, when I asked you that question, you stopped

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for a second and said, Okay, how would my kids respond? And we

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aren't going to put words in someone else's mouth, so we

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really have to think about, what would they say about this? And

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so that's been one of the things I've learned over the years is

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Hey, asking that indirect question, not directly, asking

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the candidate or even a client, what do they think of this

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individual? But actually asking, what is that important person in

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your life? What would they say about this opportunity? What

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would they say about these things? Another thing I thought

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was interesting I started, and I this is obviously something that

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I've heard over the years from other people. Is a good question

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to give to candidates if they're going through the interview

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process, is saying to them, if you're talking to your future

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boss or your future mentor, ask them this tough question. If I

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were to ask other people that have worked for you, how would

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they describe you as a mentor, as a boss, and you will get

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immediate, Frank answers to that question, because people don't

Brian Vogt: 00:04:28

want to put words in everybody else's mouth.

Stephanie Maas: 00:04:32

Let's do a role play on a debrief. I want to

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know like, pretend you just sent me out on an interview, and

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we're doing a debrief. I'm the candidate, you're the recruiter.

Stephanie Maas: 00:04:39

How exactly does that sound. And let's pretend you know who my

Stephanie Maas: 00:04:42

important person is. Let's use some very real information.

Brian Vogt: 00:04:45

Yeah, so usually, what I would ask you, Stephanie

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is, tell me about the the interview. You know, tell me

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about the types of questions you got from the interview, mainly

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kind of asking you, hey, what? What did they say to you? What

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kind of questions Did they ask you? And then I would. Also get

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into you know, did anything pop up that maybe concerns you

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during the process? Any Did they say anything, or did anything

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kind of strike you as odd or off, if I coached you properly,

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did you ask a clarifying question when something was off

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and then finally, did you guys discuss next steps in the

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process. Where do we go from there? Now, at this point, when

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I'm starting to wrap up the call, this is usually when I go,

Brian Vogt: 00:05:27

Hey, by the way, did you have a chance? I know you and I talked

Brian Vogt: 00:05:30

about that important person to your life, your your good

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friend, whatever. Tell me, you know, did you have a chance to

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discuss the interview with them? And what was their feedback?

Brian Vogt: 00:05:41

You'll notice, I never asked them, What do you think? I don't

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want them to tell me what they think. I want them to tell me

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what that important person of their life is, is providing

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information. Because typically, what we do is we turn to those

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in our lives that think the same way we do have the same goals

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and are good advisors for us. So a lot of times, the real meat

Brian Vogt: 00:06:08

and concerns will come forward during that discussion.

Stephanie Maas: 00:06:12

You know, it's so interesting because the other

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side of that too is those are the people that we trust. They

Stephanie Maas: 00:06:18

usually want what's best for us, and yet we can also heavily

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influence their support with our feedback to them. So in this

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scenario, the behind the scenes, which is really what I think

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you're unveiling here, is, you know, after the interview ends,

Stephanie Maas: 00:06:33

I'm going to call my brother and I'm going to say, Oh my gosh.

Stephanie Maas: 00:06:36

Let me tell you, I loved it. It was great. This and this and

Stephanie Maas: 00:06:40

this, and my brother's feedback is going to be, well, hey, this

Stephanie Maas: 00:06:44

sounds like a great opportunity for you. I'm really excited. And

Stephanie Maas: 00:06:47

then, therefore, he will give me his support because of what I

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shared with him. He may ask some Hey, make sure you find about

Stephanie Maas: 00:06:55

this. Make sure you find out about that. But wow, this sounds

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really great for you. So the key here, and I love this, is when

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you ask, Hey, what does your spouse think? What does your

Stephanie Maas: 00:07:05

support person think? What is, you know, whatever, what you're

Stephanie Maas: 00:07:09

really asking is, what did you tell them? What therefore, is

Stephanie Maas: 00:07:13

their response? But then also, it sheds light on, if there is

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hesitation or concern, it'll be reflected back by that person,

Stephanie Maas: 00:07:20

and then, you know, hey, this other person that's a major

Stephanie Maas: 00:07:23

influencer, and they're at big decision making is not on board.

Stephanie Maas: 00:07:27

If our major influencers in our life are not on board with the

Stephanie Maas: 00:07:31

decision we're going to make, we're rarely going to make that decision.

Brian Vogt: 00:07:35

Yeah, absolutely. I always find it interesting when

Brian Vogt: 00:07:38

suddenly they begin to mention things that we never discuss,

Brian Vogt: 00:07:42

right? Well, they mentioned I should be paid better. Oh,

Brian Vogt: 00:07:46

really. Well, you and I had discussed that pay wasn't a

Brian Vogt: 00:07:50

major issue. So, so now, why is this suddenly coming out, right?

Brian Vogt: 00:07:54

You know, mentorship is important. Well, I'm, I'm not

Brian Vogt: 00:07:57

sure if I'm getting that right? So that's always interesting,

Brian Vogt: 00:08:01

and we unveil those concerns, but we also get to talk about

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them, right? Because a lot of times, if you don't get these

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concerns out in the open, they fester, then they pop up later

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when an offer comes out, and suddenly you find out, well, I

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don't really want to accept this because of there's this

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lingering concern that I wasn't aware of. The only other thing I

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was going to bring up was the CEO of Nvidia was talking about,

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he was asked the question, you know, how do you coach people to

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become more successful? And he said something I thought was

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very profound. And he said, you know, he goes, what we find is

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everybody's going to make mistakes, everybody's going to

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fail. People are going to, you know, have to go through this

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process of learning, and failure is part of that problem. But

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what he said to people is, they've learned. We coach them

Brian Vogt: 00:08:57

to fail faster, the faster we can teach them to fail over and

Brian Vogt: 00:09:01

over again, the quicker they will suddenly realize, hey, I

Brian Vogt: 00:09:05

figured this out. Now I can get to the point of being

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successful. So if I could coach people that are new to this

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industry, I would just tell you, hey, faster you fail at this,

Brian Vogt: 00:09:17

the more mistakes you make. Don't look at it as a bad thing,

Brian Vogt: 00:09:21

look at it as a good thing. So you can learn to be successful.

Stephanie Maas: 00:09:25

I love that, and I do want to share with our

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audience this mentality at work, and that's with you, Brian. When

Stephanie Maas: 00:09:32

Brian joined our firm, you know, we kind of put the standard of,

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you know, you make 50 calls a day. Well, Brian's like, well, I

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don't want to be the average first year producer. I'm going

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to make more than 50 calls a day. You know, we set up a

Stephanie Maas: 00:09:47

Monday through Friday schedule of how to plan your day to get

Stephanie Maas: 00:09:50

the most out of your day. Brian said, Hey, that's not going to

Stephanie Maas: 00:09:54

cut it for me. My first year, I'm going to be committed to

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working, you know, Sunday afternoons to get all my

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:01

sourcing and administrative work done. And it's not about being a

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:05

workaholic or being so dogged that you don't have a life

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:09

outside the job, but it's this exact idea I want to hurry up

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:12

and learn this business is absolutely fast as I can, which

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:16

means you're going to make mistakes along the way. But

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:19

this, the sooner you get those hurdles and speed bumps out of

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:23

the way, the sooner the road opens up. Sounds super novel at

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the same time, because he set that example. He also trained

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:31

the top first year that three years ago, we had a 25 year

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:34

first year production record. She came in and broke that

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:38

record. It stood for 25 years, but it was again on this

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:41

mentality of, hey, do more sooner. Do more faster. So it's

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:45

not just a Hey. It's a great thing to think mentality. But

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:48

I'm a huge believer in you don't listen to what people say. You

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:52

watch what they do. And Brian at the time, you weren't saying,

Stephanie Maas: 00:10:56

Hey, I'm going to fail faster, but you did, and I think there's

Stephanie Maas: 00:11:00

a lot to be said for that, so kudos for you for setting that

Stephanie Maas: 00:11:04

example for us.

Brian Vogt: 00:11:05

I appreciate that. Yeah, and as a matter of fact,

Brian Vogt: 00:11:08

another person on the team this year came on the team just over

Brian Vogt: 00:11:11

a year ago and became a partner and and really just followed,

Brian Vogt: 00:11:15

followed what I did, work harder, work faster, and get to

Brian Vogt: 00:11:18

that point of of understanding this and becoming more

Brian Vogt: 00:11:21

successful. So it's definitely something that I will preach and

Brian Vogt: 00:11:25

believe in. And I think I don't know if I have the perfect

Brian Vogt: 00:11:28

method all the time, but I think what I do definitely works, and

Brian Vogt: 00:11:32

proof has been in the pudding on those around me on my team.

Stephanie Maas: 00:11:35

Absolutely. Fanastic.